the incoherence of the Muslims #1
whenever you argue with a Muslim and bring up the state of islam and it’s followers, you get met with the same answer almost every single time
“that is normal, we were strong in the past and the west was weak, now it just happens that they are ahead of us, just you wait until it is our turn to rise”
so, I decided to look into this whole thing a little deeper, first we will discuss the state of the world from the 8th century to the 12th century, when muslims were at their peak (in science and innovation), and the west was in a so-called dark age.
the Islamic world: Muslims were at their peak, countless scientific discoveries and innovations were made, they were more tolerant of others, were the center of learning, and were overall much better places to live than the west
the west: we cant really lump together all the western world, so I will talk about two states here, the byzantine empire, the Carolingian Empire (later the franks and hre)
byzantine empire: contrary to popular belief, it wasn’t that bad, they managed to hold onto their heartland very well against the muslims, their navy was equal (if not better) than the muslim one, while they weren’t flourishing by any means, they still had enough strength to resist the muslims and retain their independence.
Carolingian Empire: im mostly talking about charlemagnes reign here (ion know what his successors did), anyways his reign saw the carolignian renaissance, he established a system of schools in his empire, and his empire was very successful in war, conquering many many states and beating the muslims in Al-Andalus (keep in mind though Al-Andalus was very far away from the muslims’ center of power) conclusion: I will make a second part to this, it will be about the time between the 20th and 16th century this time, I will go more in depth in way their argument is faulty, but basically, even in the west’s dark age, they were still relevant on the world stage, unlike muslim countries nowadays, yes, the muslims were ahead, but they weren’t as ahead as western countries are now, plus, the whole civilizations fall and others arise argument (which I agree with to some extent) can only be applied on individual states, not massive regions of the world like the Islamic world.
for example, in the west, when the spanish declined, the french and british took their place as naval powers, in the case of the muslim world, the ENTIRE region is defunct, not on a state to state basis, no, the whole foundation is fucked up.
You know Dubai and Saudi Arabian are Muslim states right? Do they look failed to you? Or is it just racism with extra steps.
All human cultures rise, peak and fall, it’s the way things that don’t last forever work.
@[email protected] im mostly talking about innovation and stuff, also this post was about the 8th to 12th century, i will talk about saudi and uae in the next part, the states you mentioned are indeed really rich, but what do they have to offer outside of oil? im not against someone being a muslim, you do you man, im just talking about one of their argument to why they are currently weak, have a good day man ☺️.
They’re probably not even exmuslims, and know nothing about Islam, usually leftists accuse anyone of racism for criticizing Islam or even the way muslims live and behave, even though they keep making fun of christians day and night…
im not against someone being a muslim, you do you man
really? then you’re not against someone being a Nazi or fascist, I would say way worse than those two… I wonder why isn’t the history books talk about the early Islamic conquests, surely these people don’t think Islam was spread by hugs and kisses, and how many millions of lives were lost
calm down man, i know islam has some very very bad things in it, child marriage, sex slaves, raping war captives, i hate all those things alot, what i meant by me not hating muslims is that most muslims dont even realize these things, they are indoctrinated into following without questioning.
i just hope muslims would maybe try to reform their religion like christians did, also i know about the brutal conquests, i plan on making some posts about them. @[email protected]
what i meant by me not hating muslims…
I didn’t mean to hate, I don’t hate muslims despite all the evil shit (discrimination, jail, rape, executions…) they do to us (ExMuslims, LGBTes, Christians, Buddhists…etc), because my mom for example is a Muslim and she’s not “evil”… as in she doesn’t do all these acts… I do realize muslims come in levels from the moderate to the strict to the extremists… while in the west you’ll find mostly progressives, this is why the leftists might say: “but I met this muslim lady and she was lovely or I liked sitting at the mosque and I’m considering joining Islam… etc” but to us ExMuslims we don’t judge Islam by our feelings or personal experiences we judge it by it’s teachings and what it orders us to do, and this is why we left Islam… Because it’s teachings are VERY problematic… So what I meant is, is that when someone say they’re muslim: I see it as a red flag, a big one… Because it either means they agree with the problematic teachings or they don’t know about them (which is likely the case)… hating muslims or leftists will only make them more stubborn and close minded… hate is never the answer… but It sometimes triggers me to see ignorant people empower radical views with their ignorance
i just hope muslims would maybe try to reform their religion like christians did
I have thought about this, and this is just my personal opinion: I don’t think that’s possible with such ideology…
- Islam is very rigid, it’s not flexible because there’s only one core source that makes it stand, it’s Quran and there are violent verses in it, good luck convincing muslims to take these out, they won’t because it’s the word of God.
- Do you think you can convince a dictator to change his ways?! they’ll just shoot you in the face and be done with it… The dictator reached that state of being, because he has unshakable views about how things should be, and you cannot look for middle grounds with such person, he doesn’t believe in conversation or free speech… and the only way forward is for you to do the same, I mean… If he sticks to his radical “violent” views you should also stick to your radical “anit-violent” views and aim to prove him wrong not for a middle ground
So there’s no point in trying to save a false religion, just show them that it’s false… I think that’s the way, since it’s the only way…
@[email protected] yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually, islam is very rigid unlike a lot of other ideologies, reforming it is really hard, almost impossible even, most progressives are labled heretics and kuffar.
also im not a western muslim, i live in quite a backwards muslim country and i come from a conservative family but they arent abusive or anything, if they were, id probably be saying a lot worse things about islam, it is just cuz my experiences with them and stuff made my heart soften a bit for the religion, but i do acknowledge that it is fucked up.
also my post was fully against islam, talking about how the west’s dark age wasnt so bad, im not some islam-protecting liberal lol.
